Facts and acceptance

[louis]

I hear many say not to pay attention if a beach or pool, or lac or river is Speedo friendly or not, just wear what you are comfortable in and never mind what outhers wear.
Well, permit me to say that with all due respects to those that have this state of mind, that is easy to say but not that easy to do.
Heres a few examples why I say this.
First of all suppose you go to a beach (Especially in the US and in one of the bible belt states for example)for sure all eyes will be focused on YOU, with very evident dissaprouving features, would you not feel very uncomfortable, I often hear say (IF YOU CANT BEAT THEM JOIN THEM )
I remember a few years ago going to Old Orchard beach Main with a friend weaing very short short tenniis shorts and it was very evident that all eyes were focussed on US, we feld like as we were aliens that just landed from Mars, we indeed felt very unconfortable and since we had only skimpy type and apparel (Shorts and Swimwear) we had to do some shopping to buy less skimpy clothing to be part of the crowd.
Here in Montreal we had very warm weather lately 34 degrees cl yesterday and 33 degrees today, so I went at the corner cafe terrace for a light meal and stay d therefor a full two hours watching the people go by (HUNDREDS OF THEM) and ALL were wearing long below the knees cargo or baggy shorts, not a single person did I see in short shorts above the knees.
Well guys I just cant ubderstand it yet on the internet hundreds of firms are selling speedo type swimwear and very short shorts.
The question is who buys them and were do they wear them.
Its very evident that speedo type of suits are definitely not out of style yet as some swimmers and divers still were them for competitions and such.
Yet its impossible that all these firms only sell there skimpy apparel to only swimmers and divers, would they not go out of busness.
Unfortunetely boldness is not an attribute that ALL we speedo lovers have.
I hear some say it takes only one single guy to pull on a speedo and many outhers will follow, it would be fun to hear stories from guys that have bene witnesses to that. Fortunetely here in Montreal we still see one or two speedos or short shorts wene we go to local pools and beaches so its ok to also wear one as we will not be alone, but such is not the case everywhere.
Some allso say that short shorts and speedos will come back in style well perhaps, but never the less the stores are still jammed with long baggy below the knees shorts swimwear.
Hopefully lets hope that if waht we like best do come back in etyle we will still be young enough to wear them or anyway stay in excellent shape as we get older.
My humble apologies for my poor spelling and the quality of my composition , I am a Canadian frncophone from Quebec, and english is a second language to me.
permit me to close by adding that I fully respect your opinion if contrary and dont agree with this message SPEEDO ON......

[Torchwatch]

It's still cold in England, it has been raining for months, very few people walking about are wearing shorts.
Since the rain didn't fall today a lot of cyclists are about, many of them in lycra shorts.

A new fashion started over the winter, drainpipe trousers in brown or mustard yellow. The teenagers started the fashion and it is catching on. Not ashamed to show off the shape of their bodies they will want something different to long baggy shorts when the sun comes out.
When teenagers get into a fashion style it spreads fast, all ages adopting it, shops selling off unwanted gear cheap and bringing in stocks of the new fashion fast. The momentum builds ....

Euro 2012 football is starting in June. What will the teams be wearing for summer football this time?

The Olympics are coming to London later in the summer, all kinds of sports wearing all kinds of kit. If sports gear looks good and is available the teenagers will want to wear it. Hopefully some will choose short shorts.

Don't worry Louis, all those short shorts and speedos hidden away in cupboards will start to come out when the sun begins to shine in Europe, and spread around the world.

[louis]

Good excellent, wonderfull, very positive reply Torchwatch.

[California Dolphin]

I posted a comment on this subject on another board:

http://www.swimmersexuality.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=93680&sid=d3549dc8f1db56d9d707c76251d57af0

Just this morning, I noticed that about 1/2 (yes I said 1/2, not 1/4, not 1/8) the guys on the jogging path around the waterfront here in San Francisco were wearing short "Marathon" shorts. It was like a trip back in time and I thought I was living in the pre 90's era!!! :D

Regarding the fact that most of the "main stream" stores are still carrying only the long & baggy stuff, keep in mind that the general public is not known for innovative thinking and without any real choice, they will continue to pick up anything that's an off-the-shelf product -no matter how dorkey and stupid it looks.

It's kinda like people re-electing lousy politicians over and over again because there's no real choice in who to vote for.

CD

[Byron]

Thanks CD - you made me look at that interesting DE speedo forum to which I see you have made a few posts.
You had put up some wrestler pics I believe and their singlets do seem to be changing when viewing some more recent bouts. The longer thigh-coverage ones are still around but it's good to see the guys appearing more and more with square-cuts to the crotch (or even a few speedo-like high leg cuts too).

There was an amusing contrast however. An Italian speedo lover posted some good pics of himself and said how much he liked his muttandinas (minislips) - BUT, looking at the beach scene, the young guys all around him were wearing boardies !

[California Dolphin]

Here's a practical idea:

If you can't find speedo style swim suits or short running shorts in the main stream outlets (Like Macy's, Sears, Old Navy, Gap, etc.) try sending them an email that your looking for something else other than the long & baggy stuff and you would be happy to patronize their store if they would offer some real choice.

Every store has a "Contact" link on their home page and it's an easy way to voice your opinion about what you do and don't like about their product line. If they get enough complaints about the lack of choice, they'll probably start offering something more than the status quo.

CD

[Torchwatch]

Went for a long bike ride today, now have cycle shorts tan lines. On route I saw a few guys in well above the knees shorts, mostly older shorts brought out of cupboards.
On the beach there were younger people paddling in the sea in their boxer briefs (same design as a square cut swimwear), although they arrived at the beach in longer shorts they had stripped off to swim. If this catches on then swimming in the sea in underwear to save getting "day shorts" wet will bring back square cut swimwear.
The sun only started shining here on Wednesday, it seems to have been too much for some, there were emergency ambulances rushing to calls throughout the day, lights flashing and sirens wailing.
As I left the beach it appeared that something was going on in the Thames Estuary, the Police were supporting Coastguards who were staring out to sea, more Coastguards were rushing to the scene in their 4 wheel drives. I never found out what was happening.

[Byron]

LOL - wonder if the thigh-high guy was out on his roller skates in Paris too.

[notmyj]

As you guys know from my other thread, I have been "pushing the limits" by wearing girls bikini bottoms. More this year than last and this year has just begun. I have been in my bikini bottoms for 3 days straight and so far not one person has made a comment about it, positive or negative. I think the theory of acceptability is in the mind of the person wearing the swimsuit, whether is be a speedo or a bikini bottom. I simply wore my bikini all weekend as if nothing was amiss. I didn't draw attention to myself, I didn't mention it or make a big deal about it, and.guess what? No one else made a big deal about it either.

The only mention of it was when my gf's sister and I were discussing diets, and I made the comment that I need to find one that works if my gf wants me to keep wearing these swimsuits. She mentioned a diet I should try because of the work I do and the schedule I keep. I opened the door for her to make comment about the bikini but she brushed it off and kept the conversation on topic. So far 100% acceptance with no comments.

I feel the acceptance is there. I plan to be at the public pool next weekend, so I will update then. As of right now, we are getting ready for another pool party and bbq. And once again I will be in my bikini. I will report back tonight or tomorrow. ;)

[PSDave]

I personally don't think that when everyone looks up when a guy in a speedo walks on the beach it is a look that implies disapproval. I think that is perceived only by the person wearing the speedo. The fact is that when anyone walks across the beach everyone looks at them -- not because of what they are wearing. It is just the fact that another person has entered. It is the same as when entering a restaurant or theatre -- people look out of curiosity. Could be they wonder if the know the person or are just bored and it is something else to look at. People may make note that you are wearing a speedo, just as they would make note of your board shorts. Disapproval -- highly unlikely. Think of it as what it is - a swim suit. One of many styles worn, but still just a swim suit and appropriate attire for the beach or pool. Chances are there are many other people there and their fascination with your arrival is momentary, they will be back in their own world having forgotten you before you get to your chaise.

One thing though. If you arrive on the beach in a pink see thru bikini prancing around like you are in a Pride parade - then yes. The looks you get are disapproval and not only from conservatives but even from gays that hate your adding to the stereotype of speedos=gay.

[California Dolphin]

Interestingly, when I was in the local supermarket last week, I noticed a couple of guys wearing what appear to be "cut offs" made from what were formerly long & baggy Nike shorts.

I've also noticed several other cases of guys wearing cut off jeans that were at least 1/2 way up from the knee and I've been wearing short cut offs for about 6 months now. However I don't get any looks or comments.

As I've said before, just wear what you like (speedos to the pool or short shorts for casual) and eventually diversity will take it's course and that will ultimately set the style. ;)

CD

[bostonspdo]

We are in a chicken and egg situation where most people want to fit in so they buy long baggy shorts so that is all that stores sell. I think that I am seeing more guys in speedos on the beach and short shorts on the street in the past couple of years but it is still rare. I wear short shorts as much as possible, like now for instance, because the more the more they are seen the more acceptable they will become and maybe more available. What is really necessary is for some popular clothing brand to make a fashion statement about speedos and shorts. It can be expensive to do so if you misjudge the market though. This is not a commercial endorsement but one brand that I think is headed the right direction is American Apparel. I've bought their (slightly expensive) products but the important thing is that they appeal to younger, fashion conscious people and are promoting at least moderately more revealing clothing.

[Byron]

Yes, the fashion industry is notoriously fickle and the relationship with the customer is of one bunch of sheep leading another bunch of sheep.

The truth of a particular product situation is obscured because the retailer sheep are frightened of having a stockroom full of unsold merchandise "for which there is no demand". On the other hand the "demand" from the customer sheep only comes about because somebody or something has told them that they must buy xxx this year because to be seen wearing xxx from last year would be deeply unfashionable.
There is a phenomenon in food purchases which illustrates this rather well and results from the proliferation of cookery programs on tv in recent years.
"Celebrity chefs" now abound and the presentation of a recipe somewhat outside the norm will result in supermarkets immediately selling out of stocks of a particular fruit or vegetable on which previous sales have been minimal
(or some supermarkets not able to sell out because they had never stocked the product in the first place).

How many times have we been told by store clerks "We're sorry Sir but we don't stock those - there's just no demand for them any more" ?
It is right for CD to say that all customers should make their wishes known on the purchases they expect to make from the big retail chains but I am afraid it would need millions of Emails to bring about even a slight reassessment of policies in some buying departments.

[dorcas3]

I grew up in 501 cutoffs. I usually made them from old worn jeans that the knees had given out. After the cut they begin to frey and you would end up with 2 inches of fuzz. When you make the cut don't go too high our yu'll cut the bottom off the side pockets which Iiked to have. If you took sandpaper to the crotch and over the buttons you could really thin out the material to be more comfortable. If you went commando your dick and nuts were apt to hang out so I wore a swimmer jock. They became easily waterlogged so not good for swimming unless you were desperate to cool off which often happened. I don't see why some company does'nt make them up for a fashion statement-sew all kinds of designs on them and sell for 100.00.

[Torchwatch]

the Japanese do .........

[Byron]

:) Yes they do, but so tiny there would not be much opportunity to sew a design on them.
The guy on roller skates in Paris had probably cut a bit too high as suggested
(but his fashion statement no doubt)

http://shop.pacsun.com/home.jsp
Interesting to see here that men's shorts appear long but look at women's and you find the cut-offs (and there is the Roxy brand, which brings us full circle to the thread about bikini bottoms)

[California Dolphin]

Regarding Byron's post #13 on this topic, I seriously doubt that many people would actually take the intitiative to contact the management or the owners of any of the main stream clothing stores.

Also the people behind the counter are usually minimum wage employees who don't give a rat's behind about their job other than getting a weekly paycheck.

It's a lot like politics - People bitch and gripe about government, however very, very, very few ever take the intitiative to contact their representative. I know an office worker for the congressional rep for San Francisco area, and she says they only get a few emails a day -at the very most- from the public.

With that kind of apathy for something as serious as government, I don't believe anyone is going to take the intitiative to complain that their department store isn't selling speedos or short shorts.

CD

[Byron]

Quite agree CD - but aren't you contradicting your own post ? (message 6)

[California Dolphin]

Byron, what I meant was that IF people did complain, they would probably get some favorable results. It's a matter of taking the initiative.

By the way American Apparel might be a good place to start making suggestions. American's headquarters and manufacturing operations are located in Los Angeles (instead of China, Mexico, Thailand, etc.) and they also operate their own stores throughout California.

http://www.americanapparel.net/

CD

[Byron]

I didn't know they are so international -
they list stores in nineteen countries now.

(LOL - London has acquired a new area
called Carnaby ) (it's Soho).

[Torchwatch]

Back in the 1970's a group of us school boy runners would individually and frequently go to the 2 sports shops in town seeking running shorts, shoes and spikes.
On each visit the young runner would be told that the shop doesn't stock those items as there is no demand.
We didn't know that the others were doing the same thing.
Occasionally someone might get into London and get running gear there.
It wasn't until the London Marathon began that the local shops started stocking running gear, and new sports shops sprang up to compete for sales.

If your local stores want a share of the specialist sportswear market let them stock the goods, otherwise buy on internet mail order.

The dork shorts are being mass produced in China and the Third World, and sold at prices which even after retail profits are cheaper than buying the fabric and elastic they are made from. If you want better designed sportswear you will have to pay for it.

[California Dolphin]

Here's a simple idea that I'm actually doing.

I've got several pairs of worn out jeans and I'm making them into cutoffs. So I cut them off 1/2 way up from the knee. I'd like to cut them shorter, but any less in length would expose the pockets.

I wear my cutoffs along with traditional athletic socks and sneakers and regardless of what you think about styles in clothing (and their alleged association with a person's sexuality), the pre 90s does in fact look really cool.

Anyway, if you can't find real shorts in the stores, make your own and start wearing them in public and that will be a simple way to make a statement!!! :D

CD

[Byron]

You are quite right but manufacturers can't allow you to provide yourself for years with shorts from tough old jeans - that means you won't be going out to buy their pretty boardies !

[California Dolphin]

Regarding Byron's comment, I buy jeans at Goodwill or another second hand store where I can get stuff on the cheap.

Amazingly, the second hand places have tons of perfectly good jeans and shirts for 10 cents on the dollar so I don't have to pay top $$$ at the mainstream retail outlets.

By the way, if you want new stuff, here's a site that sells the old style:

http://www.rustyzipper.com/mens/shorts/1970

There are more on line sellers so just Google the phrase "Men's Vintage Style Shorts Or Swim Suits". :cool:

CD

[California Dolphin]

Regarding the return to the old style athletic shorts, take a look at what guys are wearing on this site:

http://www.trackpic.net/

If the shorter look makes a return in athletics, I believe it will quickly gain acceptance with general public.

CD

[Byron]

http://www.aolcdn.com/aolpolltool/chris-cooley-short-shorts?w=300&h=300
Footballer here makes a contrasting point.

I'm a little sceptical about the guys on the street enthusiastically making style changes as it is the girls who own the short shorts fashion now and the cargo pants are well established for the guys to assert their difference.

One athletic guy seems to want to go shopping with plenty of free leg movement nevertheless:
http://menshortshorts.blogspot.co.uk/2010_12_23_archive.html (pic 3)

[California Dolphin]

"I'm a little sceptical about the guys on the street enthusiastically making style changes as it is the girls who own the short shorts fashion now and the cargo pants are well established for the guys to assert their difference."

No one "owns" any fashion style and anyone can assert their their difference if they've got just the basic initiative to do it.

The problem is the vast majority of the guys don't have any initiative to do anything out out of the mainstream.

CD

[Byron]

:( .....reminds me of yesterday's news on Egypt - one of those places where the opportunity of a democratic vote for a government should be something
very precious - but so many thousands of citizens have nevertheless ignored
their franchise.

[NJHunkguy]

Not sure is this the right thread to pose this...

_______________


A few days ago, I went to a vacation beach town in New Jersey.... I was wearing that Chssiebum. I don't understand what's up here. People are so conservative (or whatever you call them)

The suit was a square cut, not even small coverage. When I was walking the beach by myself, I over heard people saying things about it, giggles. "gay slur" in Spanish, "maricon". I mean, my view their culture are pretty wild. Why do they look at swimsuit so conservative. Something's wrong with the people in here. Don't understand why will it be funny to wear speedo type. Do I have to also wear big trunk to the beach and pool too....

But I did found that, if I wear a speedo type with company of ladies, then they would just look and usually not making comments!

[Byron]

What a refreshing post NJH ! You are making comments in relation to nationalities and swimwear. You must immediately delete the letters US of course (and did you say the slang was Spanish??) - hope STS is reading this !

[NJHunkguy]

What a refreshing post NJH ! You are making comments in relation to nationalities and swimwear. You must immediately delete the letters US of course (and did you say the slang was Spanish??) - hope STS is reading this !

You were referring to the discussions in the thread "Sauna Etiquette".

I was not doing any bashing. I was the one who was being hurt, being laughed at. Many times many places in this country... I have feelings too!

[California Dolphin]

Not sure is this the right thread to pose this...

_______________


A few days ago, I went to a vacation beach town in New Jersey.... I was wearing that Chssiebum. I don't understand what's up here. People are so conservative (or whatever you call them)

The suit was a square cut, not even small coverage. When I was walking the beach by myself, I over heard people saying things about it, giggles. "gay slur" in Spanish, "maricon". I mean, my view their culture are pretty wild. Why do they look at swimsuit so conservative. Something's wrong with the people in here. Don't understand why will it be funny to wear speedo type. Do I have to also wear big trunk to the beach and pool too....

But I did found that, if I wear a speedo type with company of ladies, then they would just look and usually not making comments!
Strange - Here in San Francisco, I see a lot of guys in out on the jogging trails in short running shorts and no one makes any comment.

Same goes with me in my short cut off jeans.

CD

[SwimTeamSpeedo]

Nope Byron... u still don't get it. No bashing in NJH's story. No statement of broad generalizations about a country or its population. By they way, u can make quips about me all over this board... and a while back u called me immature...funny.

[PSDave]

in reference to NJH's comments about his beach experience. He only mentioned Spanish as the language of the comments. This does not surprise me in the least. There is this Macho mentality in Mexico that draws the real jerk out in the males. (females too when no males present) They treat women as 2nd class citizens and gays below that. (male to male sex is going on "the down low" and has no meaning, only sex and it is not gay - to them) While in two popular Mexican resort cities I was warned that if I planned a long walk on the beach alone that I should wear shorts or baggies not my speedo. It is not uncommon for a guy in a speedo to be attacked and beat up as gay.
It seems that when they come across the boarder (legal or illegally) they bring that mentality with them. I saw it a lot in Southern Cal and Mexico. I would say to NJH - forget it, consider the source and the mentality of the ones speaking.

[Torchwatch]

http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2012/07/46386/morocco-cancels-an-all-gay-cruise-visit-to-casablanca-4/

[Byron]

http://www.sebringsil.com/speedowear

From 2007 and "future revision" is referred to.
Should we now read a later treatise Sebbie ?

[sebbie]

not written yet..will be getting back to my writing in the coming year

[NJHunkguy]

Strange - Here in San Francisco, I see a lot of guys in out on the jogging trails in short running shorts and no one makes any comment.

Same goes with me in my short cut off jeans.

CD
San Francisco .... allows totally nude, but people require to carry a towel to sit in public places.

Still, I will feel reluctant to wear speedo, alone, in a crowded public beach in S.F.

I wear short shorts running topless too. I often got comments from kids-teens, "look" " he is not wearing anything underneath" "honk". One time in the area I live, there was a teen boy screamed out, telling the neighbors to look at me. "LOOK, LOOK, he is naked... put on a shirt, put on a shirt."

----------------------------
I remembered during the time of the Beijing Olympic, I was running in a red split short topless. I crossed a traffic light at a major road. One driver went honk honk, "go go go"...
I couldn't tell was it a cheer or tease . .

[NJHunkguy]

in reference to NJH's comments about his beach experience. He only mentioned Spanish as the language of the comments. This does not surprise me in the least. There is this Macho mentality in Mexico that draws the real jerk out in the males. (females too when no males present) They treat women as 2nd class citizens and gays below that. (male to male sex is going on "the down low" and has no meaning, only sex and it is not gay - to them) While in two popular Mexican resort cities I was warned that if I planned a long walk on the beach alone that I should wear shorts or baggies not my speedo. It is not uncommon for a guy in a speedo to be attacked and beat up as gay.
It seems that when they come across the boarder (legal or illegally) they bring that mentality with them. I saw it a lot in Southern Cal and Mexico. I would say to NJH - forget it, consider the source and the mentality of the ones speaking.
I read it, interesting comment.

Caribbean islands like Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Grand Cayman, etc, where homosexuality is illegal. Only learn about it over the cruise ship arresting news a few months ago.

[Byron]

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100828143027AA8GnsB

PS: Dominican Republic on east side of Haiti and
Dominica (the cruise ship incident) near Martinique
http://www.definitivecaibbean.com/caribbean-map

[Byron]

map should be http://www.definitivecaribbean.com/caribbean-map

[NJHunkguy]

map should be http://www.definitivecaribbean.com/caribbean-map
Thanks for your clarification. It was my mistake.

But still, according to the internet, "even though it is legal in Dominican Republic, there is still major discrimination against LGBT members of the society. This is mainly due to the strict Catholic status of the country. Although homosexuality is not generally accepted, hate crimes are rare as they are prosecutable under Dominican law. "

Although it was my mistake, still, it was that cruise ship incident made me learn and search about the status among these islands. Made me careful, if I ever go there for vacations.

[Byron]

The Cayman Islands have attitude* but not law, being a British Overseas Territory.

*Cruise ship Leeward refused permission to enter in 1998:
http://www.frommers.com/destinations/caymanislands/0177028778.html

[JamesSwim]

Here's a practical idea:

If you can't find speedo style swim suits or short running shorts in the main stream outlets (Like Macy's, Sears, Old Navy, Gap, etc.) try sending them an email that your looking for something else other than the long & baggy stuff and you would be happy to patronize their store if they would offer some real choice.

Every store has a "Contact" link on their home page and it's an easy way to voice your opinion about what you do and don't like about their product line. If they get enough complaints about the lack of choice, they'll probably start offering something more than the status quo.
CD

Actually buying from the stores send a good message to the buyers than writing to them.

I found that department stores tend to sell fashion swimwear while sporting good stores sell suits for lap swimmers. But department stores web sites also carry briefs and some carry it in real stores. I saw Boss-brand briefs and short trunks from Marc Jacobs in Nordstrom. Zara and H&M also carry short trunks. Late in the season, like in July, they won't have much left but may be on sale.

On Macy's web site, you can see Speedo-brand and 2(X)ist suits. Calvin Klein started to make men's brief suits that Macy's carries (I saw a full page ad of those the briefs in the NY Times)

[California Dolphin]

Hi JamesSwim

Thanks for the advice. I'll have to drop by some of the major department chains here in S.F. and pick up a few suits.

A rather clever improvement on your idea would be to buy several suits each from a different retailer. That would give the illusion that the market for brief style suits is bigger than it actually is!!! ;)

CD

[notmyj]

Abercrombie is even getting on the band wagon of smaller swim suits. They have some short leg swim shorts on their website. Since they are pretty mainstream in the us and are typically 2 years ahead, it could be "normal" to have thigh length swim shorts that aren't so baggy in the US soon. Keep the faith, its coming! Lol

[Byron]

:eek: Maybe white T shirt man should consider very carefully his holiday cruise destination?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxzulpg3yK1r0jrfko1_1280.jpg

[Byron]

Let's hope it's coming but here's the HuffPost with some hype of exactly two years ago (and 13 pretty uninspiring pics of some overpriced products from Milan)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/22/speedos-are-back-itsy-bit_n_621618.html#s104346&title=Dolce_Gabbana

[NJHunkguy]

:eek: Maybe white T shirt man should consider very carefully his holiday cruise destination?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxzulpg3yK1r0jrfko1_1280.jpg
Funny ! :)

[NJHunkguy]

Let's hope it's coming but here's the HuffPost with some hype of exactly two years ago (and 13 pretty uninspiring pics of some overpriced products from Milan)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/22/speedos-are-back-itsy-bit_n_621618.html#s104346&title=Dolce_Gabbana
Hot stuff on the runway! Well, making my suits looking outdated :mad:

[sebbie]

Slide 1 sideways to model's right
2 sideways to model's left
3 sideways to left, strings out
4 matching sideways to models' left, slightly up and forward
5 probably sideways to left, pattern maked determination more difficult
6. Confusing, strings out
7 up, tho could be down
8 confusing..what's that black thing covering at end of ties
9 likely to model's right
10 straight out..looser fit allows this
11 out and slightly to model's right
12 up, probably

[Byron]

...... a complete mystery - cannot make any sense of black frontal attachment

[sebbie]

see first photo I will take my abs and body any day (second photo)!

Sebbie

[Byron]

.....and maybe half a dozen of your black Adidas for the price of one D&G ?